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1 Corinthians 15:50-54: A Preterist Commentary: Preterism, the Rapture and the Resurrection. Many partial preterists believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of perfected earthly bodies; however this view has several Biblical problems see The Notion that the Resurrection is an Earthly Phenomenon whereby the Dead are raised as Perfected, Eternal Earthly Bodies is dispelled by 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 and Isaiah 65:20. and How the Resurrection Bodies of the Saints Perfectly Mirror Jesus’ Resurrection Body with Supporting Evidence from the Bible, Near-Death Experiences and Outside Expert Testimony.]]>
]]>How the Jewish War and Resurrection to Heaven Mirror Genesis and the Fall; and How Preterism fixes the Age of the Earth Problem and unravels the Mysteries in Genesis. Now regarding teh fact that the earth is getting worse not better is simply untrue. Humanity goes through vacillations from generation to generation; however, if anything, humanity is gradually getting more and more ethical because life is getting easier and easier with technological advances which aid to meet human needs. To get an idea at how far humanity has gotten read the historical books in the Old Testament. Humanity has come a long way since then. The illusion that things are getting worse, not better, is because there are huge increases in global communication notifying us when something happens across the globe giving the impression that the world is going to hell. This is an illusion because there are exponentially more people in the world right now then there were one hundred years ago. Thus there are many more people around to sin then in previous generations. ]]>
Thanks for your response, Daniel. I was thinking about it today, and I wanted to mention… I think part of the reason why I have been keen to engage you on these issues is twofold: 1. You obviously have some very interesting ideas on your site, and the combination of history with exegesis and theology is really fascinating. but… 2. I think, in your eagerness, you are treading on dangerous ground, and I communicate with you to warn you, but also because it’s been good for me as wel to clarify some thingsl. In Romans, Paul talks about the creation being in “bondage to decay”, and he says it is that way because of the “one who subjected it”, and in the context, it’s clear that humans are the one who subjected it. And it says that creation is “groaning”, looking for it’s “liberation” from that “bondage to decay” that the sinful humans have subjected it to. Clearly then, the thrust of redemption (as indicated in other scripture as well), is that the direction of human history is a redemptive one, where eventually we will get back to “eden” (in this case the new Jerusalem), and sin will be eradicated. This, I believe, must be kept in mind as we read prophetic and cryptic scriptures like Revelation. And so I am actually suggesting that your full preterism is almost making “null and void” this redemptive direction. By claiming that all prophecy is fulfilled, and that any greater fulfillment for humans is “when they get to heaven” is, I think, to undercut the whole of redemptive history. Clearly humans have “subjected the earth” because of our sin nature in our actual bodies, and clearly the thrust of redemption is eventually the eventual eradication of this tendency. I am not one to cry wolf by saying such things as “heresy!” or “that’s unorthodox!” because I care more about what is true than what is orthodox. But at the same time, I can understand why people label full preterism as hyper preterism and “Hymenaeism”, because I believe that this view still today “destroys the faith of some”. And believe that the way it does that is by ultimately nulling and voiding the fairly obvious trend of redemptive history. If you concede that the sin nature in man came about at the fall, then you should also see that redemptive history looks forward to it’s eradication (and not just a hope in heaven). You are a very smart guy, but you are also on very dangerous ground, and to be honest, your full preterism (I think) has to eventually lead you out of real Christianity, because it forces a cognitive dissonance in the mind that is at odds with the overarching thrust of the whole story of humanity, and the ultimate “blessed hope”. Our world right now is getting much worse, not better, and this obvious reality combined with the attempt at grandiose language at the end of Revelation, to me, calls for a resolution to this. Saying that flaming arrows falling from the sky at the time of the crusades qualifies as “fire coming down from heaven and devouring them all” indeed could be possible, but it is purely speculative. And if you do adopt this view, it must logically force you to admit that we are still pre-Rev 21 if we see something similar happening in the same geographical area all over again. I guess I’m suggesting that it’s not just heresy you’re flirting with, but a disaster of epistemology as well, where any event could be construed as the final fulfillment of a prophecy. If we believe that the tree of life was a reality on the physical planet earth, then the recourse to the language of the tree of life at the end of Revelation (beginning same as the end) seems very clearly to imply the eventual eradication of the sin nature in humanity in it’s totality (for the original curse was universal, so also evetually the cure must be so as well). Thanks Daniel. -Jonathan ]]>
Hi John, No worries. I appreciate your comments. I encourage feedback because it helps me know and understand my audience better–like having a free focus group. Soon I will put a blog on this site so that there may be a more suitable forum for these discussions. I just wish to make this quick point for the sake of my full preterist audience: In my commentaries on Revelation, you may recall that I often make the point that earth represents Israel, while sea represents the Gentile nations (i.e. Rome) throughout Revelation. I understand the “four corners of the earth” in this interpretive framework. The four corners are the four corners of the province of Israel (Israel is and was roughly rectangular in shape hence the four corner reference). As is the case today, Israel at the time of the first crusade was surrounded my Muslim territory at each of its boundaries. Recall that in the final battle of the first crusade, the soldiers of al-Afdal Shahanshah’s army consisted of Seljuk Turks (Meshek, Tubal and Gomer), Arabs (Sheba and Dedan), Persians (Persia), Armenians, Kurds, and Ethiopians (Cush). This unified assault consisted of Muslims from all four points of the compass from Israel’s point of reference–four corners of the earth, Israel. You are certainly most welcome to preserve your partial preterist leanings. It is not my desire to push full preterism on people. Even if it is true that all prophecies have been fulfilled, as I do believe strongly, this does not disprove future fulfillments. One can still point to these past events as types of future events to come. Thus even if full preterism can be found to be entirely true, this does not disprove partial-preterism. –Daniel ]]>
Hi Daniel, sorry for reading this only now, and looking back at my comments, I think I took too harsh of a tone with your article, and I do apologize for that. I finally have read your commentary on Revelation 20, and I’ll use this place to respond if that’s alright. Of course, like most material on your informative site, I find this line of thinking very interesting. But I think what you are often doing on this site is taking very interesting discoveries and pushing them beyond what the evidence warrants, and making connections where the line is actual tenuous at best. Revelation 20 is of course the key passage, in terms of distinguishing between orthodox (partial) preterism, and full preterism. This is an interesting view you hold, and one that I actually haven’t encountered before (the claim that the timeline of the bible ended at the crusades). I think though, upon further investigation, you’ll realize that this view cannot be proven conclusively, but that in fact it warrants serious doubt. It seems to all boil down to Gog and Magog, and I think you are making more of the meaning of this phrase than necessarily is warranted, and I think you’ll find that equating it with the Muslims of the crusades is very tenuous (although it could be considered a “type” I think, at best). In my archaeological study bible, in the notes it says: “Gog and Magog symbolize the nations of the world as they band together for a final assualt on God. The OT background is Ez 38-39. Revelation draws on the warning in Ez 39:6 that God will hurl fire on Magog, and especially on the threat of 38:22 that he will cast hailstones and burning sulfur on Gog’s army. Magog was a son of Japheth (Gen 10:2; 1Ch 1:5). Josephus applied this name to the Scythians, but there is no evidence to support this identification.” It makes sense to me that “Gog and Magog” would be a symbol of the nations of the pagan (known) world in general (including Muslim), especially in light of the phrase “four corners of the earth”, which is an idiom meant to imply “from everywhere”. Because in John’s day there was no understanding of the entire literal world, it makes sense to me that he was just simply trying to “get a birds eye view” as much as possible to signifiy a grand cataclysm coming in the future that would involve all the corrupt nations of the world coming together against “the camp of God’s people”. Now I suppose it is technically possible that this could refer to the Muslims and the crusades, but you would have to demonstrate that these muslims were coming from the “four corners of the earth”. But not only that… let’s say that (especially in light of recent events overseas with ISIS and the like), that we found ourselves in a situation where Muslim militants today were in a similar situation of the crusades, and what if indeed they occupied (eventually) the same area (Meschech and Tubal in Turkey)? And what if, like the US and Canada are doing now, planes were then dropping missile strikes on them in this particular place (if they had occupied it). Should I then presume that this section of Revelation is being fulfilled again (fire coming down from “heaven” and devouring them)? Or should I maybe consider that it is a dual fulfillment? Or…. should I just take this section as John trying to paint the broadest picture possible? I appreciate your identification of Gog and Magog with these cities in Turkey, and indeed the searches I have done seem to match that area as well. My only point would be this: Even if you can properly construe the events of the crusades to be the final fulfillment of this passage, you will end up in a hard position if we find ourselves repeating this same history (as indeed it seems that we are heading in that direction with current events…. ie: Muslims vs the west). And if we are repeating the same history, that would imply that we are still PRE-revelation 21. I am far more inclined to believe that what happened at the crusades could be a “type”, rather than the final fulfillment. Although it is very intriguing that the crusades happened 1,000 years after the fact, it is also the case that, throughout the Bible, “one thousand” almost always designates just “a lot”. http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Number/Thousand.htm If we are going to take much of the descriptors in Revelation metaphorically (as I think we rightly do), then we should also consider such a metaphorical understanding of the thousand years as well. And in regards to Revelation 21, it is true that there are many OT precursors that could designate a non-literal fulfillment (I also am not awaiting a new literal earth, but rather a “new order” for humans). But “the old order of things has passed away” has no OT precursor, and does indeed hint at a new order for the totality of humans. And not only that, but especially because in Revelation we are taken “back to Eden” in a sense, where we will then be able to participate in the “tree of life”. This definitely suggests a reversal of the fall of man itself, implying that the sin nature (that you discussed James talking about) is overcome and destroyed (no more sin impulse in the human body, as Paul succintly described of our human condition in Romans 7). Together, all these things seem to imply something much bigger than what we are living in now. Yes, it’s possible that I could say that the ultimate fulfillment of the reversal of the fall of man is in heaven… but I think if you say that, you are really missing the ultimate thrust of Revelation (and the goal of “Creation”). You said: ” The second resurrection mentioned in v. 13 seems to have transpired one thousand years later at around the time of the Crusades in fulfillment of v. 5: “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.” And earlier you said: “Could these giant spirits seen over Vesuvius be Christ and his angels binding Satan in the Abyss as described in Revelation 20:1-3? Could the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius be the direct result of casting Satan into the subterranean lake of fire in the earth’s core?” This is all very interesting, but ultimately, only speculation. You have made a good case for something though… and that is that Revelation may indeed have “dual fulfillments” in it. But to go beyond this and claim that the 2nd Resurrection has happened is extremely presumptuous (and would then be contradicted if we find ourselves in a similar situation where such events are “happening again”). Thanks for your consideration! -Jonathan Thomas ]]>
For full preterists to say that we now occupy the time when there is “no more death or mourning or crying or pain” is absolutely ridiculous. It obviously means the eradication of sin and evil, and if you think we are living in that time, with due respect, you must live in a hole in the ground. In response I will quote part of my commentary on this v. in Revelation 21:4:
Reflecting the bliss reserved for those in the presence of God in heaven, the Christian refugees returning from Pella resettled in Judea likely overwhelmed with joy that the war had ended. With the war over, in a way, there was no more death, sorrow or pain. The elation of the saints returning home mirrored that of the Jewish exiles returning home from Babylon in Jeremiah 31:12. Here the prophet writes, “[T]hey will sorrow no more.” The Christian church shares in this promise. The prophet Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would carry their sorrows.[xiii] As a result, the believer is left with joy in the Holy Spirit, as stated in Romans 14:17 and John 15:11. This promise of no more mourning, crying or pain which is fulfilled on earth in the joy in the Holy Spirit is merely a shadow of the literal fulfillment of this promise in heaven. Adding to the joy of the believer is the promise of eternal life through Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross.[xiv] Because of this sacrifice, there is no more death as the old order has passed away.
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